Pitting the government ministry against the political class, as if the former was the good guy and the latter the villain, was the mistake of Operation Lava Yato and “puts two big labels that prevent you from defining reality,” he says. Regional Attorney of the Republic, Ubiratan Cazetta, who will chair ANPR (National Association of Prosecutors) until 2023.
He defends the results of the operation, such as recovered values, as well as evidence gathered from investigations, but admits there have been problems and points out that now is the time to resume dialogue with civil society, with Congress, and internally.
“At some point you had Lava Yato with a very large size, with a lot of debated facts, but also with easy speech of the good and bad guys. I don’t like the performances of the good and bad guys. Because it prevents the maturation of society,” says 52-year-old Cazetta in an interview sheet…
In his opinion, the sequence of major operations has made politicians more reactive, which could lead to what he sees as negative guidelines for the work of the prosecutor’s office, such as the current draft of the new Criminal Procedure Code, as well as changes in the composition of the CNMP (National Council of Prosecutors).
Cazetta also defends the discussion and submission of the category triple list to President Jair Bolsonar for the election of the Attorney General of the Republic, although the current incumbent Augusto Aras has not left this relationship and may be reappointed.
What is the priority of this control in ANPR? It is a reconstruction of connections, both internal and external. We have to remake the dialogue with civil society, with the National Congress, and also with the internal dialogue because of polarization.
Congress addresses many issues of interest to members of the Federal Attorney’s Office. Why did this atmosphere of hostility arise? Our function is ungrateful, it is always the function of those who charge fees, and those who charge fees obviously create uncomfortable situations. With both the polarization of society and the sequence of major processes such as monthly payments and Lava Jato, it is natural that this thought arises, and this is the life of a government ministry, we must live with the knowledge that we are facing opposition.[Mas] what is happening now is a collection of facts that underscore this. Our role is to separate our messages from any mistakes and to prevent reciprocal adoption of legislation. This is a serious problem: the reduction of responsive legislation and the struggle for changes that look to the future, but with a balance.
What is a confluence of facts? It cannot be denied that the polarization of the debate after Dilma’s re-election [Rousseff] this caused a lot of discussion in the society. Secondly, the whole discussion around Lava Jato, both her successes and criticism, sparked a situation to which you have a reaction.
When you are dealing with a process in which a serious corruption situation in the state is discussed, including all sorts of accusations, it is natural that there will be a return. At one point, you had a Lava Jato with a very large size, with a lot of talked about facts, but also with the easy talk of the good guys and villains. I do not like the speech of the good and bad guys, because they prevent society from growing up.
What was Lava Jato’s biggest hit and what was its biggest mistake? The main success was the construction of the investigation to combine the facts. I’m not just talking about Lava Jato de Curitiba, but about the investigation as a whole. There is no way to deny the amount of resources recovered. It is impossible to deny the amount of evidence that was correctly collected in the course of the investigation. This is a big deal, you have brought out a fact that exists.
What is the main mistake? This is due to the logic of this communication policy, which at the moment opposed the public ministry as a hero to the political class as villainy. It weakens society because you put two big labels that prevent you from defining reality. There are no heroes, villains or prosecutors against politicians. The role of the prosecutor is to protect society, just as the role of politics is to protect society.
Interaction with other peopleMr. he said he sees a threat to prosecutors’ actions in the proposal for a new Code of Criminal Procedure, which is being considered in Congress. As? First, the revival of the thesis of PEC 37 on the prohibition of the prosecutor’s office from investigations. This is most obvious: the Supreme Court itself already has a consolidated position, and an attempt is being made to reopen the 2013 debate, which seemed unsuccessful. The problem of bureaucratization of research is also important, because instead of modernizing the investigation process, a number of tools are created that bureaucratize.
The code is not upgraded, does not address the central issues of our system, and does not change the fact that only 8% of murders in all of Brazil are investigated. If we want to reform something, we have to reform it in order to improve.
What about MP Paulo Teixeira (PT-SP) who is restructuring the CNMP and giving more room to the Legislature? The CNMP is an external supervisory body for the administration and verification that the MPs themselves [Ministérios Públicos] regardless of whether they are applying their own corrective actions. There is no such body, I will get CNJ [Conselho Nacional de Justiça] who was born together, what do you think that your corregidor is not from the institution itself. Nobody is considering the issue of depriving the UST Minister of the status of a national corrector of justice. What could justify this in relation to the prosecutor’s office, other than the inconvenience caused by us? It’s not the reason. You must strengthen the institution.
For the first time in nearly 20 years, ANPR has almost no chance of making it into the triple-list like PGR. How mr. Do you think this will affect the way the elections are conducted on the list? Hopefully we can discuss what this list is for. Make it clear to the public that listing is a democratic process, it is a process of transparency, and that it matters in a situation like ours. The fact that at the moment there is no forecast for keeping the list does not mean that it should not be done, on the contrary.
Only in the federal prosecutor’s office, unlike the other 30 ministries, there is no this process of debugging names and proposals to those who choose from among candidates who somehow represent ideal for the first class. This is the time for me to test the thesis and prove to the society that this is a democratic process, transparency, and this is not for the prosecutor’s office, but for everyone.
How does ANPR position itself in relation to the leadership of Augusto Aras? Today ANPR always takes a position of frank debate and criticism. The fact that we understand that the prosecutor’s office is not fulfilling its functions, we must warn, but we must comply with the limit of conviction of the Attorney General. We cannot forget that this is opaque. I may disagree with this opinion, I might think I would have acted differently, but if it is done and if it is made public for the control of the Federal Supreme Court, the National Congress, the function will be fulfilled.
Interaction with other peopleThe suspension of the request made by STJ President Umberto Martins to investigate the Lava Jato lawyers is to be referred to the STF First Commission. How mr. to evaluate this case? The format of this investigation was completely wrong. You are not forcing a court that claims to be a victim to investigate. There is a latent conflict of interest. In the specific case with the Ministry of State, if we are discussing the investigation of members, we have a rule in the supplementary law: whoever conducts the investigation is the Attorney General of the Republic or whoever is appointed. Today we have the Deputy Attorney General in charge of this investigation, he is investigating the facts and will present to the public what he investigated.
Spoofing proofs are discussed. [operação que investigou o hackeamento de mensagens de integrantes da Lava Jato]… Regardless of whether it affects members of the prosecutor’s office today or not, there is a concept from which we cannot separate: illegal evidence is illegal evidence. It may even serve to defend someone to avoid a conviction, but it has never been discussed in Brazil that it can serve as a punishment.
Folla said the federal police had asked the STF to investigate Minister Diaz Toffoli based on a complaint by Sergio Cabral. How mr. do you see such an opportunity? I think that all of us, regardless of our position, can become the subject of investigation in our own forum. What I need is the suitability of this initial test for investigation. Recognized bargaining is a very important tool, we cannot simplify or sacrifice it.
In this particular case, we must remember that this award was refused. [pelo MPF] because there were no minimal elements in it. This was done directly by the police with the same elements as there. If she has a reasonable basis to investigate, fine. An investigation must be carried out.
If there is no minimal evidence, if it is very insignificant, then you should see the obvious: what am I going to investigate? If I have nothing to investigate, whether against a minister or against a homeless citizen, is it illegal government action?
Cleaned up Casetta, 52
A member of the Regional Attorney’s Office of the Republic of the 1st Region located in the Federal District, he holds a Law degree from the USP and a Master’s degree in Human Rights from UFPA (Federal University of Para). He joined the government ministry in 1996 and has worked primarily on environmental and human rights issues in the Amazon region.